August 28, 2014

"Without making the victims responsible for what happens, one of the groups that have to be trained not to drink in excess are women."

"They need to be in a position to punch the guys in the nose if they misbehave. And so part of the problem is you have men who take advantage of women who drink too much and there are women who drink too much. And we need to educate our daughters and our children in that regard."

Said Former GWU President Stephen Joel Trachtenberg, participating in a Diane Rehm Show panel discussing the role of fraternities on campus. He'd just touted their "philanthropic activities" and "leadership training" and segued to: "They get other kinds of training as well. Combatting sexual misconduct..."

He was interrupted by Rehm, who asked whether fraternities were — as opposed to combatting sexual misconduct — "participating in sexual misconduct"? That is, Trachtenberg wanted to present fraternities as serving the greater good, and, in that light, they might fight against "sexual misconduct," but isn't that at least partly because they are the source of the problem? Now, it's a good idea for those who are doing what is wrong to take charge of eliminating what is wrong, so why not get Trachtenberg to come out and say that?

Of course, Trachtenberg is getting excoriated for saying that women need "to be trained not to drink in excess," but, to be fair, he had just spoken about men training each other not to commit assaults. If you can get past the static of that one word, does Trachtenberg deserve all the abuse he's getting?

He prefaces the remark with a disclaimer: "Without making the victims responsible for what happens...." That actually works as a confession that he knows he's saying that women should take responsibility for avoiding becoming victims, and I think he means to say it and to acknowledge he's going to be criticized.

As for the advice — good advice to everyone — "not to drink in excess," he's including women as "one of the groups." What are these groups? The other group, I take it, is: men. There are two groups: men and women. Neither should drink to excess. All human beings, in their youth, should acquire the skill of not drinking to excess. Kind of a no-brainer, but Trachtenberg didn't say it quite correctly enough to deflect abuse. And — to use a phrase — he asked for it.

ADDED: Hours after this post went up I noticed a slip: "There are two groups: men and women. Neither should drink to access." Yikes! Corrected.

67 comments:

mikeski said...

There are two groups: men and women.

Hater! There's, like, eleventy-seven groups now! Social construct! Cisnormative! HATE CRIME!!!!

traditionalguy said...

Famous aphorism: The mating call of the Southern female is,"Oh no, I think I am getting drunk."

Alcohol is for plausible deniability, in the best CIA meaning of the phrase.

chillblaine said...

Why do universities turn a blind eye to underage drinking? Most college students are not of legal drinking age, yet this behaviour is not discouraged.

Nonapod said...

How can you train a person not to drink in excess? Are there drinking coaches? I picture guys in black and white pinstripes with whistles at bars being all like "OK people, lets huddle up! C'mon! (claps hands) Bring it in! Today we're gonna teach y'all the proper way to drink.

Gahrie said...

The worst thing you can possibly do is suggest that a woman be responsible for her actions.

David said...

"Without making the victims responsible for what happens . . . "

Define them all as victims, and this is what you get. Either they have a responsibility for their own use of alcohol and its consequences, or they don't. They are responsible for putting themselves in positions of ambiguity or vulnerability. Nobody else gets them drunk.

wildswan said...

I knew a feminist who was actually teaching young college women that they had a right to get drunk at frat parties without fear of consequences.

It's strange to see that "public discourse" allows everything while regulators, Title 10 enforcers and college speech coders are reverting to a Victorian era type of speech and behavior repression - only the double standard now works against men and Christianity.

CWJ said...

Although wrote -

"Kind of a no-brainer, but Trachtenberg didn't say it quite correctly enough to deflect abuse."

Agreed. But is that even possible? The auditor has to be listening willing to understand the speaker's intent and meaning, not waiting to pounce on a perceived wrong term. The level of precision required to deflect abuse is beyond that of normal conversation.

CWJ said...

Althouse not Although. Sorry.

Anonymous said...

When a drunk woman reclines her seat back into me I realize that often this is not a sexual invitation.

Larry J said...

wan said...
I knew a feminist who was actually teaching young college women that they had a right to get drunk at frat parties without fear of consequences.


Does she also teach them other useful survival skills, such as going to the worst parts of town late at night flashing a lot of money? How about not looking before crossing a busy street? God, what an idiot!

MadisonMan said...

If there was no drinking at/around college campuses, where would those lost tax revenues come from instead?

If successful (doubt it), the puritanical race to ban underage alcohol consumption will just mean municipalities will have to raise taxes elsewhere because, you know, for the children!!! or something, and they've lost out on a tax source because somewhere, someone was having fun after having had a drink. And we can't have that.

People should, of course, know their limits. That takes some experimentation for 18-20 year-olds, unless of course they're taught at home.

Charlie said...

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life.

traditionalguy said...

In High School a group of my friends decided we needed to learn drinking for ourselves in a controlled environment.

So we borrowed one guy's older brother's apartment. Somebody bought 6 quarts of 100 proof Smirnoff vodka, and like Travis County DAs we gleefully started drinking for effect. I can remember chugging from the bottle, and very little after that.

I woke up at home in my bed with my vomit the next morning. I told my mother I got sick with a sudden stomach flu.

To this day I can drink anything except vodka the smell of which still makes me want to throw up.

Is that how they train the Women?

tim in vermont said...

One day we will be able to engineer our DNA to be the perfect human beings liberals imagine are possible.

Throwing out millennia of hard-earned social wisdom was just the first step. This was done to prove we need a new human, preferably no more than 10% male.

Shanna said...

Ha! He was the president when I was in college. He spent a ton of money buying a goofy hippo and making up a goofy legend about it.

Shanna said...

People should, of course, know their limits. That takes some experimentation for 18-20 year-olds, unless of course they're taught at home.

And we don't allow them to learn at home, because they aren't allowed to drink until they are too an age where they (in theory) are out of the house.

So they learn at college. At least at GWU, no one was drinking and driving.

George M. Spencer said...

You only have to spend a minute reading The Frisky or Glamour to see that young women are being told to go out and have sex like wild weasels, including having sex with wild weasels.

Brando said...

There's a world of difference betweeen these two utterances:

"You got raped because you did XYZ and dressed like XYZ so shame on you for being stupid, you deserved what you got, you can't really blame someone for raping you."

"Generally, doing XYZ is more likely to make you a victim of being raped. We want to prevent all rapes and punish all rapists, but we advise not doing XYZ because why make it easier for rapists?"

This idea that every bit of common sense advice (which obviously a lot of people seem to ignore) and ascribing some agency to victims somehow always amounts to "victim blaming" is not just stupid but dangerous. It infantilizes victims in the utopian hope that by training men (presumably by ending "rape culture" by stopping microagressions or something) we can prevent all rapes that way.

I recall last week on the news a 60 year old woman was raped by a stranger in a bad section of Baltimore. The police noted that her building's door was left unlocked, and they advised the community to keep their doors locked at all times. Is this victim blaming? I think it's still pretty clear that the rapist is a criminal who should be caught and prosecuted, and the woman was an unfortunate victim, but should we be expecting the police to just say "well, do what you want with your doors, we don't want to sound judgmental!"

Brando said...

Shanna--same here! I recall "hippo-gate".

At the time I was there, they had a place close to campus (if you could call that school a "campus" as it was really several city blocks) called Mr. Henrys, notorious for not checking ID and of course packed with underclassmen who would drink until they time travelled to the next morning. Unfortunately, the city had it shut down, scattering underage drinkers to various other hit-or-miss places. It probably would have been safer for them to drink somewhere walkable to campus rather than shooting across town to Adams Morgan or Capitol Hill, where getting blackout drunk could mean getting lost.

Drinking is something that should be taught at home, in the pre-teen years, and in moderation. The worst binge drinkers tended to be the ones who all the sudden had freedom thrust upon them.

MadisonMan said...

And we don't allow them to learn at home, because they aren't allowed to drink until they are too an age

Please. It's not like the Govt is snooping in your house...yet.

Of course, this is Wisconsin where any parent can order their kid beer in a bar.

Shanna said...

Shanna--same here! I recall "hippo-gate".

Cool! I am always amused when GWU makes the news.

There was also a liquor near campus called 'tokay's' I think? That was apparently notorious for selling liquor without id.

I remember going to Tequilla Grill on my 21st birthday and being upset that they didn't card me.

The Drill SGT said...

Nonapod said...
How can you train a person not to drink in excess?


He did not say anything that generations of Mothers haven't said to teenage daughters going off to the city or college. In my day, the local sororities used to conduct training classes for their pledges on "how to behave at a frat party" and it wasn't about giving a BJ. It was basically:
- always have a wingwoman
- don't go upstairs alone
- pace yourselves when drinking
- check in with the Pledge Mistress before leaving the party
- don't embarrass us...

buwaya said...

Colleges should be academic institutions and stay out of their students private lives, as most of them do outside the US.
I find this US attitude ridiculous.
Students should be free to make their own living arrangements and order their lives as they see fit. This was always the tradition in university towns. Even seminarians did this, and even had a reputation for loose living. Hence Orff's Carmina Burana.

Chip said...

Most of the time, I've found, drinking to excess is the right thing to do because it leads to fun and danger and adventure and interpersonal bonding. This is the stuff you need in life, risk be damned, especially when you are young. It should certainly never be discouraged.

Dad29 said...

There are two groups: men and women.

CAUTION: the above does not apply to marriage.

David said...

One way to train everyone not to drink to excess is to lower the drinking age (particularly for wine and beer) and have teenagers socialized into good habits -- rather than waiting for the weekend and binging.

Shanna said...

Most of the time, I've found, drinking to excess is the right thing to do because it leads to fun and danger and adventure and interpersonal bonding. This is the stuff you need in life, risk be damned, especially when you are young.

I think the definition of 'excess' is an issue here. Drinking to the point of being sick or getting blackout drunk all the time is not generally a good idea. If you can hit that sweet spot where you are having fun and being social but still retaining your own mind you are good to go. But finding that point sometimes requires trial and error.

Brando said...

"I knew a feminist who was actually teaching young college women that they had a right to get drunk at frat parties without fear of consequences."

Technically, I'd have to agree with your feminist friend--you should have a right to not fear consequences of being raped because you got blackout drunk--no one has the right to rape you, even if it's a bad idea to get blackout drunk. Just like you have a right to leave your car door unlocked, or walk through a bad neighborhood at night. But it still doesn't mean that those things are good ideas--isn't it better to avoid the crime entirely rather than go after the perpetrator later?

PB said...

I can't believe how puritanical the free-condom, free birth control, free abortion crowd is.

n.n said...

I believe the politically correct standards are that men need to maintain possession of their sperm and women need to maintain possession of their faculties.

Brando said...

"I remember going to Tequilla Grill on my 21st birthday and being upset that they didn't card me."

I don't recall them ever carding (at least when I was in undergrad--that may have changed). Dollar Corona nights on Thursdays were huge there (or it may have been Wednesdays). Froggy Bottom though took the cake, as $10 would get you all you could drink beer and all you could eat pizza all night--great if you're on a budget.

Ah, memories--sadly the main criterion for bars these days is a good beer selection and lack of noise. And keeping those damn kids off my lawn...

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

Unbelievable. Hey, everyone knows women are just helpless ninnies.

John henry said...

As Instapundit often reminds us, it is impossible to outcrazy Robert Stacy McCain.

But feminists do it every day.

Recently someone invented a nail polish that empowers a woman to dip her finger in a drink. If the polish changes color, there is roofie in the drink.

Naturally feminists are up in arms because, well I am not really sure why. All men should be angels or some such. Women should have no responsibility for what they drink. Something along those lines. It is all very unclear to me.

Other than the fact that feminists(tm) are REALLY PISSED OFF!!!!! about this.

The fact that the polish was invented by a heteronormative cis-man probably doesn't help much either.

If I was in college today, I think I would be a GUG. (Gay Until Graduation)and ignore women altogether. Colleges seem filled with lunatic women and it is too risky to try and sort the loony from the non-loony.

Being gay, even temporarily would solve all that. Plus Bonus Points!! In the victimology game. I might even be a black, hispanic, transgender, gay and get quadruple bonus points.

John Henry

Unknown said...

betamax3000 said...When a drunk woman reclines her seat back into me I realize that often this is not a sexual invitation.

But sometimes? Mile high club?

Rob said...

Lots of college boys get drunk and have sex. The important thing to remember is that they are victims of rape. That's what it's called when a male has sex with a drunk female, and colleges are content to apply that rule in proceedings largely devoid of due process. Fair's fair. If men are disciplined or criminally prosecuted for having sex with drunk women, then women must receive the same treatment when they have sex with drunk men.

Shanna said...

Froggy Bottom

Oh man, I forgot about that place!

Agree with you about beer selection and I'll add 'or' a good wine selection (meaning they have a pinot noir from oregon or new zealand on the menu).

Uncle Pavian said...

Eventually, some young men will figure out that the way to avoid a lot of this trouble is not to drink alcohol or have sex with people to whom they are not married.
Remains to be seen how long that will help.

Trashhauler said...

"Why do universities turn a blind eye to underage drinking? Most college students are not of legal drinking age, yet this behaviour is not discouraged."

Because universities only act in loco parentis when it is convenient or advantageous for them to do so. If there is really a rape crisis on campus, banning drinking and mixed gender dorms would be the first thing on the agenda, not the last.

richard mcenroe said...

How does one train to not commit assaults? Does it involve weekend drills or extended advanced training? Is there calisthenics? Long slow distance runs? Obstacle courses? Marching to jolly songs that were obscene a century ago?

Alex said...

Serious engineering students do not belong to fraternities and do not go to parties where "hook-ups" occur. They are too busy studying their maths. Meanwhile, they inherit the world.

See Gates, Zuckerberg, etc...

Alex said...

Is in the same way that SS troops would need to be trained to not kill Jews?

Guildofcannonballs said...

Yeah but who blew whom for the scoop?

http://dailycaller.com/2014/08/27/book-couric-accused-sawyer-of-trading-head-for-headlines/?advD=1248,41002

Seeing Red said...

This keeps up, it'll be better for frats to hire hookers.

Known Unknown said...

Are there drinking coaches? I picture guys in black and white pinstripes

Those would be drinking refs, which might not be a bad idea.

A drinking coach would be Mike Ditka. He could certainly train you to drink.

Seeing Red said...

Feminism has come to this.

Ambrose said...

Beware the passive voice in any policy prescription. Just who exactly is it that must train women not to drink in excess, and why them?

Todd said...

IF there was really a "rape crisis" in collages and your daughter had an actual 1 in 5 chance of getting raped, it would be criminal to send your daughter to collage (call DCF!). If more people acted on this false fact as though it were true (for example stop sending your daughters to collage), collages would be fighting it but people don't so collages don't.

tim in vermont said...

In place of outdated "morals" we now have "re-education." Simples!

tim in vermont said...

Remember Todd, spell check is your >enema.

n.n said...

richard mcenroe:

Religion. Whether it is a faith-based or ad hoc (e.g. evolutionary) moral philosophy is irrelevant. It's the principles that matter. Training is accomplished through repetition and exercise. Essentially, it's an academic course for developing self-moderating behavior, and learning the standards of normalization, tolerance, and rejection in a particular society.

Todd said...

tim in vermont said...
Remember Todd, spell check is your >enema.

8/28/14, 12:44 PM


Heh.. Knoted. :)

John henry said...

Seeing Red:

Not a bad idea about frats hiring hookers. Of course that would require a radical change in feminist thinking.

Many now claim to be pro-choice, because it is a woman's body and a woman's right to choose.

They would have to actually be pro-choice. They would have to allow women the right to choose to overtly sell their bodies for sex.

Pro-choice must mean pro-choice.

Note that while I am pro-choice for both men and women, I am generally against abortion. I think the fetus has a right to make a choice whether to or die. Abortion takes place with them playing any part in the decision making process.

John Henry

John henry said...

When I was younger, my metric for excessive drinking was defined as "not being able to stand up" With "stand up" defined as being able to get up on my hands and knees however briefly.

I learned the hard way that this is no way to go through life. Since 1984 my standard for excessive drinking has been not even a drop.

Works for me, everyone else can do what they want. Just stay off the roads when doing it.

I am amazed at the drug culture and romanticization around alcohol.

John Henry

John henry said...

Oops above.

Abortion takes place without the fetus playing any part in the decision.

John Henry

Anonymous said...

Woman gets drunk and has unwanted sex, not her fault and nothing she should change.

Woman visits Wisconsin and gets kicked in the face by a giraffe. Totally her fault.

I'm so confused.

Think of it like this, if you drink a bunch of alcohol and climb into the cage with the males, expect them to attack you and do worse than kick you in the face. And while they should be punished for their behavior, don't expect the forces of gravity to change over your indignation. If you do it again, you'll get kicked in the face again, this time, but a new set of males in another cage.

The Drill SGT said...

John said...
Seeing Red:

Not a bad idea about frats hiring hookers. Of course that would require a radical change in feminist thinking.


Wait isn't that how the Duke LX story starts? :)

DanTheMan said...

If a woman is so drunk that her judgment is impaired, we must ask:
Who is responsible for her being drunk?
Isn't the answer, in almost all cases, the person actually doing the drinking?

Todd said...

No it is not. Have you NOT heard ANYTHING? It is the fault of the patriarchy.

Big Mike said...

I always believed that young single women got drunk because they wanted to get laid but weren't in a relationship and wanted to avoid the stigma of being called a slut. Also if the best they could do was a guy who wasn't all that hot they could always play the "coyote ugly" card and it wouldn't be a reflection on their own lack of desirability.

jr565 said...

What is this "men takes advantage of" we're discussing. Its hookup culture. Girls are women enough to go out and get drunk and hook up with men. Suddenly guys must also act as their chaperone?
There have been plenty of times when I was in my hookup phase that ended up doing stuff with girls, where both of us were drunk out of out minds. (And probably wouldn't have happened if we weren't). If I'm as drunk as her, why am I responsible for what happens but she isn't?

The Godfather said...

Discussions about college drinking and college sex have an odd element to them, because we now declare 18 year-olds to be adults. Yet colleges treat them as children with respect to their drinking and sexual behavior, particularly the women. Drinking is supposed to be special, but it's entirely inconsistent to say that you are an adult, but you can't drink an "adult beverage".

I used to think that we should raise the age of majority back to 21 (actually, I favored 35), but I now think that colleges should just let their "adult" students alone, except, in the case of resident students with respect to the normal landlord concerns about noise and trash.

And yes parents ought to teach their children that one feature of adulthood is not drinking to excess (and "excess" depends on the circumstances). Adults also take responsibility for their actions, drunk or sober.

Gahrie said...

If I'm as drunk as her, why am I responsible for what happens but she isn't?

Becaue you're a man, and she isn't.

Blue@9 said...

Such incredible nonsense.

If I walk down a bad neighborhood at night with hundred dollar bills hanging out of my pockets, there's a good chance I'll get mugged.

If my friend tells me "You really shouldn't do that anymore," is he 'blaming the victim'? According to the logic of the #waronwomen industry, your friend is a callous crime-apologist for even suggesting that you might try altering your own behavior.

iowan2 said...

Concerning child rearing I dont know shit.(according to academia)
I sent our male "June baby" to kindergarten at age 5 and was told by a principle 1 semester away from his doctorate that my son would fail academically, because of it.(graduated #1 in his class of Engineers)
Explained to my son and daughter, that if they did not want to get in trouble, don't go where trouble is. Explained to my son and daughter that their actions always come with consequence. As they desired more freedom, they were allowed to suffer the consequences of their choices. We never played alarm clock, nor wrote notes to school. Never had to bail them out of jail, but they knew that if they ended up there, a call home would not generate much reaction.
If you cant pay the fine, dont do the crime.
Girls dont get drunk. All actions have consequences.
Tough shit....If someone lead you to believe life was fair......they lied.

Achilles said...

For the vast majority of women punching a man in the face will just result in a hurt hand and an angry man. Grabbing tearing ripping stabbing would actually be effective. But this whole issue is a con in the first place. Why not start it out with telling women how to fail at defending themselves.

Danno said...

Todd, I saw Tim in Vermont's post, but I can't help but remember the sweatshirt John Belushi wore in Animal House.

http://belushi.com/college/